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Post by Ortheore on Jul 7, 2020 10:52:48 GMT
Hi all, while we're all playing in the New Frontiers tour, I thought it might be good to get a parallel thread going for discussion of the format. Feel free to share your thoughts on what you're finding (in)effective in this new format, what's just different, and what you (dis)like about it
=================== By far the biggest difference between 1U and OU is the absurd potency of sleep. In OU, sleep is kept in check by sleep clause (obviously), but also by the fact that most of its users are significantly lacking in other areas. This means that it becomes a manageable threat, as you can potentially play around it using paralysed pokemon, or exploit the opposing sleep user in some way. Even once you absorb sleep, there's often some degree of mindgames that ensue, as many sleep users (looking at you, Eggy) may also present openings for the sleeping mon to wake.
With Lax now getting LK and Hypno rising to become a dominant threat, I feel like that strategic element goes out the window. Sleep instead becomes a tool for two of the most potent offensive threats in the game to invalid their opponent's top counter to them. Moreover, they're such dangerous threats that most typical counterplay to sleep will backfire spectacularly, not to mention the fact that it's far from guaranteed that they're even running a sleep move in the first place.
I honestly think there's a reasonable case to be made for banning sleep moves entirely, but that feels like an extremely bold and contentious move to be making, especially so early on, and also because I think that in OU sleep actually makes the game more interesting, rather than detracting from it.
================== Really enjoying playing with Hypno and seeing how people respond to it. Obviously this is a rapidly evolving situation, but I overall enjoy Hypno being good.
================== Wtf do people do about leads? One of the defining aspects of the lead meta normally is controlling the spread of status, especially sleep, but sleepblocking feels kinda meaningless when LKLax exists to destroy paralysed pokemon, while going for early sleep also means you miss out on the opportunity to invalid a counter with your Lax/Hyp later on
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Post by Disaster Area on Jul 13, 2020 22:27:54 GMT
Yeah the presence of sleep everywhere is certainly interesting but I feel like Snorlax and possibly Persian/Nidos are the biggest changes there. I don't think Hypnosis is that good on Hypno, but maybe it's an option. Probably lets you play it a bit differently, I haven't tried it or theorised it yet.
I think if anything, we should aim for Pokemon bans or complex bans (e.g. LK Snorlax). I think nothing is super obviously broken from our few weeks worth of testing, but once we have finished this tournament and played a season, we can form a council (I will write up more details on this at a later date, a lot on my plate but I have most of that in my head right now) which would then have the power to do suspects.
Agreed on Hypno feeling quite fun. It can be dangerous and even game-ending if used right, but I've just as often seen it thrown away as fodder or failing to accomplish much just by virtue of the game state (once it became quite useless to me because I had to deal with a victreebel and more speed would have been useful!)
I guess for leads you have
LK Lax
Faster sleepers (e.g. Gengar, Jynx, Eggy, Persian, maybe Fires?) which beats out lead lax
Sleep absorbers (Starmie mainly, Zam and maybe Jolteon too) - beats out most sleepers but not a great time against lax necessarily (though LK lax missing its LKs against lead starmie is kinda brutal because that damage sticks if you're not running rest!)
Maybe chansey is in there somewhere
Starmie is ever reliable, honestly, and I think it should remain a staple lead throughout the evolution of the tier.
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Post by Ortheore on Jul 14, 2020 10:32:34 GMT
Hmm, well, I'm adamantly opposed to complex bans such as LKLax. I think they're a terrible thing for any ruleset to implement, especially if it establishes a precedent whereby such things become normalised- you would swiftly end up with a confusing abomination of a ruleset if complex bans were common. Furthermore, I think it's totally arbitrary as to what combinations get picked on, as a single combination of things is not sufficient to make something broken- it's the entire picture (in this case all of a mon's moves and attributes) that makes something broken, so I don't think it's logical to focus on one specific combination- it's failing to see the forest because of the trees. Not to mention that it could potentially be argued that there are any number of combinations that tip something over the edge, so focusing on one is arbitrary. Lastly, in the specific case of LKLax, I think focusing on that is largely novelty bias- because LK is a "new" tool for Lax, we focus on that and ignore the fact that Lax does plenty of other stuff that makes it arguably broken regardless.
I think banning sleep moves is a logical course of action IF we decide it's necessary (way too early to say), because sleep moves are already broken- we've had to implement sleep clause in response to it, and even then it's an incredibly powerful tool
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Post by Disaster Area on Jul 14, 2020 11:04:09 GMT
Hmm, well, I'm adamantly opposed to complex bans such as LKLax. I think they're a terrible thing for any ruleset to implement, especially if it establishes a precedent whereby such things become normalised- you would swiftly end up with a confusing abomination of a ruleset if complex bans were common. Furthermore, I think it's totally arbitrary as to what combinations get picked on, as a single combination of things is not sufficient to make something broken- it's the entire picture (in this case all of a mon's moves and attributes) that makes something broken, so I don't think it's logical to focus on one specific combination- it's failing to see the forest because of the trees. Not to mention that it could potentially be argued that there are any number of combinations that tip something over the edge, so focusing on one is arbitrary. Lastly, in the specific case of LKLax, I think focusing on that is largely novelty bias- because LK is a "new" tool for Lax, we focus on that and ignore the fact that Lax does plenty of other stuff that makes it arguably broken regardless. Yeah I agree on that notion, I don't think a complex ban would really be appropriate here. I just don't think as an option they should be entirely ruled out from the getgo. |
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Post by IsacBence on Jan 24, 2022 22:57:15 GMT
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Post by IsacBence on Jan 24, 2022 22:58:28 GMT
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Post by IsacBence on Jan 24, 2022 22:59:35 GMT
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Post by IsacBence on Feb 25, 2022 14:00:42 GMT
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